| Translation by Der Spiegel |
|
| SPIEGEL: Mr. President,
do you love your country? |
SPIEGEL: Mr. President, do you
love your country?
|
| Assad: That is a
simple, evident question. Of course. It's human to love where you come
from. But it is not just a question of the emotional relationship. It is
also about what you, as a person, can do for your home, especially when
you are in a position of authority. That becomes especially clear in
times of crisis. Right now, at a time when I have to protect my country,
I am feeling just how much I love it. |
President Assad: Of course, and in this I am no different from most people. This
is not merely about emotions, but rather about what one can do for his
country if he has the power and especially in times of crisis; and at
this particular time, I realize more than ever how much I love my
country and so I must protect
it. |
| SPIEGEL: If
you were a
true patriot, you would step down and pave the way for negotiations for
an interim government or a cease-fire with the armed
opposition. |
SPIEGEL:
Wouldn’t you
be more patriotic if you stepped down and allowed for negotiations over
an interim government or for a cease-fire with the armed
opposition? |
| Assad:
The Syrian people will determine my fate. That is not a question any
other party can decide. Who are these factions? Who do they represent?
The Syrian people? At least part of the Syrian people? If they do, then
let's go to the ballot box. |
President Assad: The Syrian people determine my fate; no other party can
determine this issue. As for the armed opposition or factions, who do
they represent - the Syrian people? If so, this can be proven only
through the ballot box. |
| SPIEGEL: Are you prepared
to stand in an election? |
SPIEGEL: Are you prepared
to run in the next elections?
|
| Assad:
My second term in office will end next August. Two months earlier we
will hold a presidential election. I cannot decide now whether I am
going to run. It's still early, because you have to probe the mood and
will of the people. If I no longer know that I have the will of the
people behind me, then I will not run. |
President Assad: My term ends in August next year. The presidential elections
should take place before that time. I cannot decide now whether I am
going to run; this depends on what the Syrian people want. If people are
not behind me, I won’t stand in the
elections. |
| SPIEGEL: So
you're really considering giving up power? |
SPIEGEL: Will you seriously
consider giving up power? |
| Assad:
Whether I'm open-minded or not, this is about the decision of the
people, because this is their country. It's not only my
country. |
President Assad: This is not about me or what I want. It’s about what people
want. The country is not mine alone, it’s the country for all
Syrians. |
| SPIEGEL:
But you are the reason for the rebellion. The people want to get rid of
corruption and despotism. They are calling for a real democracy and the
opposition believes this will only be possible if you step
down. |
SPIEGEL: But some people say that you are the cause of the rebellion,
because people want to get rid of corruption and tyranny. They call for a
true democracy; and according to the opposition, this is not possible
with you in power. |
| Assad:
Again, when you talk about factions, whether they are opposition or
supporters, you have to ask yourself the question: Whom do they
represent? Themselves or the country that made them? Are they speaking
for the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Saudi Arabia and
Qatar? My answer here has to be frank and straight to the point. This
conflict has been brought to our country from abroad. These people are
located abroad, they live in five-star hotels and they say and do what
those countries tell them to do. But they have no grassroots in
Syria. |
President Assad: Do
these people speak for
themselves, or do they speak on behalf of the Syrian people or on
behalf of the countries that are backing them? Do they speak on behalf
of the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Saudi Arabia or Qatar?
Let me be clear about this: this conflict is being brought to our
country from the outside world. These people live in five-star hotels,
they are dictated to by their financial backers and have no grass roots
in Syria. |
| SPIEGEL: Do you dispute that there's a strong
opposition against you in your country? |
SPIEGEL:
Do you deny that there is a strong opposition against you in your
country? |
| Assad: That's
normal. If I don't have opposition, it means all the people support me,
and that's impossible. |
President Assad: There is certainly an opposition in our country. What country
doesn’t have opposition? It’s impossible for all the Syrians to be on my
side. |
| SPIEGEL:
But we aren't the only ones who are disputing your legitimacy. "A
leader who slaughtered his citizens and gassed children to death cannot
regain the legitimacy to lead a badly fractured country," US President
Obama said at the United Nations General Assembly at the end of
September. |
SPIEGEL: It’s not only us who deny the
legitimacy of
your presidency. U.S. President Barack Obama said at the U.N. General
Assembly meeting in New York that a leader who kills his people and
gases children to death has forfeited any right to rule his
country. |
Assad: First of all, you're talking about
the
president of the United States, not the president of Syria --so he can
only talk about his country. It is not legitimate for him to judge
Syria. He doesn't have the right to tell the Syrian people who their
president will be.
Second, what he says doesn't have anything to do with
the reality. He's been talking about the same thing -- that the
president has to quit -- for a year and a half now. Has anything
happened? Nothing has happened.
|
President Assad: First, he is the president of the United States and has no right
to pass judgment on Syria.
Second, he has no right to tell the Syrian
people whom to choose as their president.
Third, what he says in realty
has no foundation whatsoever. He has been calling for me to step down
for one and a half years. What next? Have his statements made any
impact? None
whatsoever.
|
SPIEGEL: From our
point of view,
it looks more like you are the one who is ignoring reality. If you
stepped own, you would spare your people a lot of
suffering.
|
SPIEGEL: For us, it seems that you are ignoring reality. By stepping
down, you save the people a great deal of
suffering. |
| Assad:
The whole problem wasn't about the president. What do killing
innocents, explosions and the terrorism that al-Qaida is bringing to the
country have to do with me being in
office? |
President Assad: This has nothing to do with me being president. Killing innocent
people and terrorizing them by explosions and car bombs, brought to our
country by al-Qaeda, is what causes pain to the Syrian people. What
does that have to do with me being in office? |
| SPIEGEL: It has to
do with the president because your troops and intelligence services are
responsible for a part of these horrors. That is your
responsibility. |
SPIEGEL: It is
relevant because your forces and security services have committed some
of these atrocities and you are responsible for
that. |
| Assad:
Our decision from the very beginning was to respond to the demands of
the demonstrators, although they were not truly peaceful demonstrations
from the start. We already lost soldiers and policemen during the first
weeks. Nevertheless, a committee changed the constitution (to reflect
the protesters' concerns), and later there was a referendum. But we also
have to fight terrorism to defend our country. I admit that mistakes
were made during the implementation of this
decision. |
President Assad: Despite the fact that the protests were not peaceful at all, it
was our policy from the beginning to respond to the demands of the
demonstrators. In the first weeks, we lost soldiers and policemen who
were killed in those protests. Nevertheless, a specialized committee
changed the constitution to meet protesters’ demands and a referendum
was held. On the other hand, we also needed to confront terrorism; it’s
the duty of the government to defend the country and take the relevant
decisions to that effect. In the context of implementing these
decisions, mistakes were made. We must acknowledge
that. |
| SPIEGEL:
The victims in the first protests in Daraa, where the insurgency began,
were largely protesters who were beaten and shot. This harshness was a
mistake on the part of your
regime. |
SPIEGEL: The rebellion started with demonstrations in Dara’a and the
victims were not only members of your security forces.The other side
also suffered a great deal. The protesters were beaten and fired at. This harsh treatment was one of the regime's
mistakes. |
| Assad: In every
implementation in the world, you have mistakes. You are
human. |
President Assad: When political measures
are implemented – anywhere in the world - mistakes are made; we are only
human.
|
| SPIEGEL: So you admit that the
harshness against the protesters was a
mistake? |
SPIEGEL: So, you acknowledge that the
harsh treatment meted out at the protesters was a mistake.
|
| Assad:
There were personal mistakes made by individuals. We all make mistakes.
Even a president makes mistakes. But even if there were mistakes in the
implementation, our decisions were still fundamentally the right
ones. |
President Assad: There were individual errors. We all make mistakes. Even the
president might make mistakes. Even if mistakes were made in on the
ground, our principal decisions were the right
ones. |
| SPIEGEL: Was the massacre at Houla only the
result of the failure of individuals? |
SPIEGEL: Was the Houla massacre
also the result of mere individual failure? |
| Assad:
It was the gangs and militants who attacked the village residents,
never the government or its supporters. That's exactly what happened.
And if you talk about proof, no one has proof against this. Actually,
what happened was that our supporters are the ones who were killed, and
we can give you the names of the victims' families because they
supported our course against
terror. |
President Assad: Neither the government nor its supporters are to blame for that,
because it was the armed gangs and the extremists who attacked the
families who supported the government. This is exactly what happened. If
you want to assert something to the contrary, you need to provide the
evidence and this is what you cannot do. We, however, and contrary to
your claims, can give you the names of the victims who were killed
because they stood against terrorism. |
| SPIEGEL: We
have plenty of
evidence. Our reporters were in Houla, where they conducted in-depth
research and spoke to survivors and relatives of the victims. UN experts
have also come to the conclusion that the 108 village residents who
were killed, including 49 children and 34 women, were the victims of
your regime. So how can you deny any responsibility and blame the
so-called terrorists? |
SPIEGEL: We
have
evidence. Our reporters were in Houla and talked to the victims and
carried out thorough investigations. The U.N. experts reached a
conclusion, after investigating the case, that 108 people in the village
were killed, including 49 children and 34 women, victims of your
regime. How can you deny responsibility and accuse the so-called
terrorists. |
| Assad: With all due respect to
your
reports, we are the Syrians. We live here and we know the reality better
than your reporters. We know what is true and we can document
it. |
President Assad: With respect to your
reporters, we
Syrians, know our country better, know the truth better and can fully
document that. |
| SPIEGEL: The perpetrators are part of Shabiha, a
militia that is close to your regime. |
SPIEGEL: The culprits
were ‘shabiha’, members of the militias with links to your
regime. |
| Assad's question
is
missing. |
President Assad: Do you have any
evidence to prove that? |
| SPIEGEL's answer is
missing. |
SPIEGEL: We
heard this from people we consider
credible. |
| Assad:
Let me be frank with you. Your question is full of misstatements.
However you put it, in the end a lie is a lie. So, what you say is not
correct. |
President Assad: I’ll be candid and even blunt with you: your question is based
on wrong information. What you are asserting has no ground in reality. A
lie is a lie, no matter how you phrase it or present
it. |
| SPIEGEL: So you deny
that the Shabiha militia was
involved? |
SPIEGEL: That’s right. So, you don’t
acknowledge that your ‘shabiha’ took part in the
massacre. |
| Assad: What do you mean by
"Shabiha?" |
President Assad: What do you mean by
‘shabiha?’ |
| SPIEGEL: This militia, the "ghosts," who
are close to your regime. |
SPIEGEL: The militias close to your
regime. |
| Assad:
This is a Turkish name. There is nothing called "Shabiha" in Syria. In
many remote areas where there is no possibility for the army and police
to go and rescue the people and defend them, people have bought arms and
set up their own small forces to defend themselves against attacks by
militants. Some of them have fought with the army, that's true. But they
are not militias that have been created to support the president. At
issue is their country, which they want to defend from
al-Qaida. |
President Assad: This name is actually of Turkish origin, in Syria don’t know
‘shabiha.’ The reality is that, when armed groups attack remote areas,
and the army and police cannot provide sufficient protection to
citizens, villagers arm themselves and create patrols in self-defense.
It’s true that some of those fought with our forces, but these are not
militias formed to protect the president. What concerns these people is
their country, which they are defending against al-Qaeda terrorists that
have been attacking them for months. |
SPIEGEL:
So massacres and terror are only perpetrated by the other side? Your
militias, security forces and secret services have nothing to do with
this?
|
SPIEGEL:
So, it was
only the other side who committed massacres and terrorism, and your
soldiers, militias, security forces and intelligence services have
nothing to do with that? |
| Assad: You cannot go to the extreme
and make things absolute --
they did everything and we did nothing, 100 percent and zero percent.
Reality isn't black and white like this. It has shades of gray. So if
you want to talk about our side, if you talk about the decisions, we are
defending our country. The mistakes are individual, and, as president, I
wouldn't discuss individual mistakes because there are 23 million
Syrians. Every country has criminals who have to be fought. They can
exist anywhere, including the government or the army -- or outside the
government and army. This is normal, but we don't have sufficient
information about this. You're asking me to generalize, but I cannot
generalize. |
President Assad: One cannot
make such
sweeping generalizations: “They are one hundred percent guilty, and we
are zero percent.” The truth is not always black and white; in the
middle there are shades of grey. But, in principle this is true. We are
defending ourselves and not anything else. As to individual mistakes, I
cannot, as president of all the Syrians, follow and check on each and
every one of the 23 million
Syrians. |
| SPIEGEL's question which appears in SANA's transcript on the
right has been deleted or is missing. |
SPIEGEL: Wouldn’t it be
possible that the crimes against the villagers were committed by parts
of the Syrian Army outside your control? |
| President Assad's answer which appears in
SANA's transcript on the right has been deleted or is missing. |
President Assad: There
are criminals in every country, even in your country. Those can be
everywhere. This is normal; but we don’t have sufficient information
about this. |
| SPIEGEL: A
president's legitimacy is not a question
of phrases and declarations. You are measured by your deeds. Through the
deployment of chemical weapons against your own people, you have
definitively lost the legitimacy to hold your
office |
SPIEGEL: The legitimacy of a
president does not
rest on slogans and promises, but on actions. As a result of the gas
attack against your people, you forfeited every right to be in your
position.
|
Assad: We
did not use chemical weapons. This is a misstatement. So is the picture
you paint of me as a man who kills his own people. Who isn't against me?
You've got the United States, the West, the richest countries in the
Arab world and Turkey. All this and I am killing my people and they
still support me! Am I a Superman? No. So how can I still stay in power
after two and a half years? Because a big part of the Syrian people
support me, the government and the state.
Whether
that figure is
greater or less than 50 percent? I am not saying that it is the bigger
part of our population. But a big part means that you are legitimate.
That is very simple. And where is another another lea who would be
similarly legitimate? |
President Assad: We did not use
chemical weapons; this
is not true. And the picture you are drawing of me is not true. The
United States, the entire western world, the richest countries in the
Arab world and neighbouring Turkey are against me, and terrorists are
crossing the borders from Iraq. On top of all of this, I kill my people,
who support me nevertheless! Am I superhuman? No.
So, why am I still in
power two and half years on? The answer is simple: because a large
segment of the Syrian people support me, they support the government and
the state. Whether they constitute 50% or less, that is a different
issue. But this large segment also means ‘legitimacy.’This is how things
are in reality. |
| SPIEGEL:
President Obama said after the
investigation into this crime by the United Nations that there was "no
doubt" that your regime used chemical weapons on Aug. 21 in an attack
that killed more than 1,000 people. |
SPIEGEL: After the U.N.
investigation of
this crime, U.S. President Obama had no doubt that your regime used
chemical weapons on August 21 in an attack that claimed the lives of
over a thousand people, including hundreds of
children. |
Assad:
Once again, I dare Obama to give a single piece of evidence, a single
shred. The only thing he has is lies.
|
President Assad: Once again, Obama never
provided one shred of evidence. The only things he provided were
lies. |
| SPIEGEL: But
the conclusions of the UN inspectors … |
SPIEGEL: But the conclusions
reached by the U.N. investigators |
| Assad:
What conclusions? When the inspectors came to Syria, we asked them to
continue the investigation. We are hoping for an explanation of who is
responsible for this act. |
President Assad: What conclusions? When the investigators came to Syria, we asked
them to continue their work and we hope that they will provide an
explanation of who is responsible for this act. |
| SPIEGEL: Based on
the trajectory of the
rockets, it is possible to calculate where they were fired from --
namely the positions of your Fourth
Division. |
SPIEGEL: The
trajectory of the gas shells could be traced back from their point of
impact to their point of launching. And it shows that they were launched
from 4th division installations.
|
| Assad: That doesn't
prove anything, because the terrorists could be anywhere. You can find
them in Damascus now. They could even launch a missile from near my
house. |
President Assad:
This doesn’t
prove anything. These terrorists can be anywhere; they are even in
Damascus itself. They could fire a missile next to my
home. |
| SPIEGEL: But your opponents are not capable of
firing
weapons containing Sarin. That requires military equipment, training and
precision. |
SPIEGEL: But launching rockets containing Sarin gas cannot be done by
your enemies. They don’t have the capabilities to do that because it
requires military equipment, training and
accuracy. |
| Assad: Who said that
they are not capable? In the 1990s,
terrorists used Sarin gas in an attack in Tokyo. They call it "kitchen
gas" because it can be made anywhere. |
President Assad: Who says so? Terrorists used Sarin gas in a Tokyo attack in the
1990s. Sarin is called the “kitchen gas” because anyone can make it
anywhere, in any room. |
| SPIEGEL: But
you really can't compare these two Sarin attacks -- they aren't
comparable. This was a military action. |
SPIEGEL: The two attacks
cannot be linked or compared. This is about a military operation in
Damascus. |
| Assad:
No one can say with certainty that rockets were used -- we do not have
any evidence. The only thing certain is that Sarin was released. Perhaps
that happened when one of our rockets struck one of the terrorists'
positions? Or perhaps they made an error while they were handling it and
something happened. Because they have Sarin -- they used it earlier in
Aleppo. |
President Assad: No one can say with any certainty that they used rockets. We
have no evidence. But the certain thing is that Sarin was used. Is it
not possible that one of our rockets hit a terrorist site containing
Sarin? Or that they made a mistake while dealing with it? They are in
possession of Sarin and they already used it in
Aleppo. |
| SPIEGEL: In
total, 14 instances in which chemical weapons were used have been
detected, but never before were they used on the same massive scale as
they were in August. Have you actually started your own
investigation? |
SPIEGEL:13
cases were identified where Sarin was used, but in no case has it been
used
with such intensity as on August 21st. Have you conducted any
investigations of
your own? |
| Assad: Any investigation should begin
with the identifying the number of the real victims. The militants said
350 victims, the US said 1,200 victims. There is something not true on
the ground. There are also inconsistencies in the pictures. One of the
dead children can be seen in two locations in two photos. What I want to
say with this is that you have to verify this case very precisely, but
no one has done that so far. We can't do that either because it is a
terrorist area. |
President Assad: Every investigation
should start with identifying the
number of the real victims. The armed groups speak about 350. The United
States
speaks about 1,400. Médecins Sans Frontières mention about 280. This
cannot be
right. Even the photos taken of the victims contain discrepancies. For
instance, a dead child appears in two different
locations. |
| Spiegel's question is missing. |
SPIEGEL: You mean that the photos of the victims have been
manipulated? |
| Assad's answer is missing. |
President Assad: I want to say this case should
be verified thoroughly;
and no one has done that so far. We cannot do it, because it is an area
where
terrorists operate.
|
| SPIEGEL: So close to the capital
city? |
SPIEGEL: This close to the
city? |
Assad: They are very close to Damascus and very
close to our army barracks. They could kill our soldiers, and that
cannot be allowed to happen.
|
President Assad: They are very close to Damascus,
close to our military
barracks; they could kill our soldiers. |
| SPIEGEL: Do you think
you can recapture ground you have
lost? |
SPIEGEL: Do you think you
can regain control of the areas you lost? |
| Assad:
Our fight is not about winning or losing ground. We're not two
countries in which one has occupied a part of the other, like Israel has
done with our Golan Heights. It's about getting rid of the terrorists.
If we liberate a piece of this ground -- and that is what is happening
in many areas in Syria -- this doesn't mean that you're winning, because
the terrorists will go to another area and destroy it. If the people
support us, then we are
gaining. |
President Assad: It is not
about winning or losing in territorial terms.
We are not two states, one controlling an area belonging to the other,
as in
the case with Israel, which occupies our Golan Heights. This is about
terrorism, which should be eliminated. When we liberate a certain area,
as we
have done in many areas of Syria, it doesn’t mean that we are winning,
because
the terrorists withdraw to another area and destroy it. That’s why we
are also
concerned about our citizens’ security. It is also important for us to
win the
support of our population: we win with their support and vice
versa. |
| SPIEGEL's question is
missing. |
SPIEGEL: Do you still control the chemical weapons
stockpiles? |
President Assad's answer is
missing
|
President Assad: Yes, certainly. Furthermore, to
assure you, I would
like to add that the stored materials haven’t been activated; and no one
can
use them before they are prepared for that
purpose. |
| SPIEGEL:
Western intelligence agencies have tapped phone calls from your
officers in which they urge the leadership to use chemical
weapons. |
SPIEGEL: This doesn’t rule out that the army was
responsible for the
attack. Western intelligence services intercepted phone calls in which
your
commanders urge the general command to use poisonous
gas. |
| Assad: That's completely fake. I
don't want to base our conversation just on such
allegations. |
President Assad: This is complete fabrication and forgery and I will not waste my time with such allegations.
|
| SPIEGEL:Is it irritating for you that
we in the West perceive the situation so
differently? |
SPIEGEL: Isn’t it
puzzling that we, in the West, have a completely
different assessment of the situation? |
| Assad: Your region always arrives late
when it comes to understanding the actual situation. When we were
speaking about violent protests, you were still talking about "peaceful
demonstrations." And when we started talking about extremists, you
started talking about "some" militants. When you spoke of extremists, we
were already talking about al-Qaida. Then they started talking about a
"few" terrorists at a time when we were already talking about a
majority. Now they have started talking about it being 50-50. Of course,
John Kerry is still in the past -- he's talking about 20
percent. |
President Assad: In fact,
your region is always late in recognizing
reality and is extremely slow in understanding this reality. In the
beginning,
we talked about violent protests, while you talked about peaceful
demonstrations. When we started talking about extremists, you were still
talking about “some militants.” When we talked about al-Qaeda, you were
still
talking about a few terrorists, although they are actually the majority.
Now
you realize that it is about 50/50. Take for instance, Secretary of
State Kerry
who still sticks to the past and talks about 20%. This is exactly what I
meant
with the reality deficit you have. |
SPIEGEL: Could it be that we
hesitate in following your assessments of the situation because we lack
confidence in you? And how would you explain this lack of
confidence?
|
President Assad: I think the West
prefers to trust al-Qaeda rather than
to trust me.
|
| SPIEGEL:
That's absurd. |
SPIEGEL: This is
absurd!! |
| Assad: No, this is freedom of
expression, please. That's my opinion, I'm telling you frankly.
Everything that the West has been doing for the past 10 years has
supported al-Qaida. Maybe they don't have this intention, but in reality
it is what happened. Because of this, we now have al-Qaida here, with
fighters from 80 countries. We have to deal with tens of thousands of
fighters. And with that, I am just talking about the
foreigners. |
President Assad: I mean it. Maybe you didn’t mean
it, but it looks like
it: all the decisions you have taken in the West for the past ten years
have
been in support of al-Qaeda. Some might have done that intentionally and
some
inadvertently. In any case, and through Western support, now we have
thousands
of al-Qaeda fighters from 80 countries. We have to deal with them. I am
referring to those who have come from outside
Syria. |
| SPIEGEL: You have lost many soldiers who
are defecting to the opposition. Are you trying to tell us that they are
becoming al-Qaida supporters overnight? |
SPIEGEL: You are losing many soldiers, those who defect to
the
opposition. Are you telling us that they became al-Qaeda affiliates
overnight? |
| Assad: No. I
didn't say everybody is now al-Qaida. I said the majority. The minority
is comprised of deserters or outlaws. At the beginning of the crisis,
60,000 Syrian outlaws were walking around freely outside of prison. They
alone would be enough to create an army. I can't tell you the number of
people fighting against us because most of them come in illegally
through the borders. They come to go to paradise in their jihad against
atheists or non-Muslims. Even if you get rid of thousands of them, they
will still have a constant supply coming from
outside. |
President Assad: No, I am not saying
that they are all al-Qaeda, but
most of them are. The minority are defectors or criminals. At the
beginning of
the crisis, we had over 60,000 outlaws at large. Those alone could form a
whole
army. How many are fighting us? I cannot give a specific figure. Most of
them
cross the borders illegally for jihad. They come to Syria in the belief
that
they will go to heaven by waging war on atheists and non-Muslims. Even
when we
get rid of thousands of them, their ranks are replenished by other
jihadists. |
| SPIEGEL: And you still think you have a
chance of winning this war? |
SPIEGEL: Yet, you believe you will
win in this conflict? |
Assad: Even if we don't
have the chance, we don't have any other choice but to fight and to
defend our country.
|
President Assad: Even if there was no chance of
winning the fight, we
have no other choice but to defend our
country. |
| SPIEGEL: Let's go back to the
issue of chemical weapons. We would like to remind you that you have
always denied possessing chemical weapons. But now, after the crimes
against humanity on Aug. 21 and the threat of a military strike by the
US, you have admitted possessing them. |
SPIEGEL: On the subject of trust, we want to remind you
that you
have always denied that you possessed chemical weapons, while now you
acknowledge that you have them.
|
| Assad: We
never said we didn't have chemical weapons. We always say "if we had,
then" |
President Assad: We never stated that we had no chemical weapons. We
always phrased our statements “if we had …, then …” But we never
lied.
|
SPIEGEL: Chemical weapons are no
reason to laugh, but there is nothing else we can
do. (doesn't appear in SANA translation)
|
SPIEGEL's Question is
missing |
Assad: In any case, we never
lied. (doesn't appear in SANA)
|
Assad's answer is
missing |
| SPIEGEL: There is evidence that
German firms delivered chemicals to Syria that can also be used in the
making of chemical weapons. Do you have more details about
that? |
SPIEGEL: It is
reported that German companies supplied you with
chemical materials, which you used to make chemical weapons. Do you have
more
specific information about this? |
| Assad: No, I don't know. It is not my business.
But in principle we do not get any help from abroad when it comes to
building the weapons. We don't need it. We are experts in this area
ourselves. |
President Assad: No, because
these are technical issues. But, in
principle, we didn’t receive outside help to make these weapons, because
we
didn’t need assistance. We are experts in the
field. |
| SPIEGEL: How many tons of Sarin or other
chemical weapons do you currently have at your
disposal? |
SPIEGEL: Then, how many tons of Sarin gas or other agents
do you
have? |
| Assad: That's classified information until
we give it to the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapns
(OPCW). |
President Assad: This remains classified
information until it is
provided to OPCW.
|
| SPIEGEL: We know that Western secret services
suspect a thousand tons. |
SPIEGEL: According to intelligence
agencies, you have a thousand
tons in your stockpile. |
| Assad: In the end, it's
about the concept, not the tons. We have the principle that we have
chemical weapons, but we think the Middle East should be a weapons of
mass destruction-free zone. |
President Assad: What’s important is the
principle not the figure. We
have these weapons – yes, but we are committed to making the whole
Middle East
a WMD free zone. |
| SPIEGEL: That, too, is a
question of trust. If you admit to having 45 storage depots for such
weapons, how do we know that is correct? |
SPIEGEL: This is also a matter of
trust. You say you have 32 stores,
while Western intelligence services put the figure at
50. |
| Assad: The
president doesn't deal with the numbers. He deals with the policy. We're
very transparent. The experts can go to every site. They are going to
have all the data from our government, and then they're going to verify
that data on the ground. Then they can say if we are credible or not. We
don't accept or commit ourselves to any agreement partially. This is
our history. We're not going to pay for the destruction of the weapons,
though. |
President Assad: This is a technical issue better determined by
specialists. As president, my focus is on the political track. We are
transparent and the experts can access any facility. We’ll provide them
with
the data, which they can examine and verify and then judge our
credibility. When
we say we are transparent, we mean it: to date, we have complied with
every
agreement we have signed. Our history testifies to this. However, we
will not
bear the costs of destroying the weapons. |
| SPIEGEL: Is the
international community supposed to believe that you don't have secret
depots? |
SPIEGEL: And the
international community should simply accept that
you haven’t hidden secret stockpiles
somewhere? |
| Assad: In international relations
there's nothing called trust; there's something called mechanism. They
don't have to trust me in person. What counts is that the institutions
work together -- my government and the OPCW -- and if I have the trust
of the Syrian people. I'm not made by the West. I am made by the
Syrians. |
President Assad: In international relations,
things are not about trust
and believing, they are about setting up the mechanisms on which the
approach
can be based. Whether you trust me as a person is not important. What is
important is for institutions to work with each other: my government and
the
OPCW. What is important for me is to win the trust of the Syrian people
and not
the West. What is important for me is Syria not the
West. |
| SPIEGEL: You
don't need the West? |
SPIEGEL: Don’t you need the
West? |
| Assad: Of course we
do, but not instead of the Syrians, and not instead of our real friends
like the Russians. The Russians understand the reality here much better.
I'm not just praising them because we have long relations. They are
more independent than Europe, which is too oriented toward US
policy. |
President Assad: Of course, but not to replace
the Syrians, or the
Russians who are real friends. They understand better than the West the
truth
about what is happening here in reality. If I am praising them now, this
is not
because of the close ties that have linked us for years, but because,
frankly,
the Russians are more independent than you are in Europe. You rely too
much on
the United States in your policies and easily adopt its
policies. |
| SPIEGEL:
The Russians are only concerned with their strategic
interests. |
SPIEGEL: The fact of the matter is that the Russians have
strategic
interests in Syria. |
| Assad: You can discuss this with President
Vladimir Putin. But let me say this: Some Europeans have come to us
through different channels to say that they are convinced about our
position and analysis, but cannot voice this out
loud. |
President Assad: You can discuss that with
President Putin. But I will
say that some Europeans have come and signaled that they are convinced
with our
political position and that they share our analyses and explanations of
the
situation. But they cannot say this in public because it’s difficult for
them
at this moment in time. |
| SPIEGEL: Is that also true
with regard to your portrayal of the chemical weapons
attack? |
SPIEGEL: And this applies to the poisonous
gas attack? |
| Assad: Obama's lies couldn't even convince
the American people. According to one poll, 51 percent were against a
military strike against Syria. The British parliament was against it
too. The French parliament had a bitter debate about it. The atmosphere
in Europe was against such an attack. Why? Because the majority didn't
believe the
story. |
President Assad:Of course. I say some,
not all. To make this clearer,
I’ll elaborate on the accusations against us. Both Obama and Kerry
presented
lies. But Obama couldn’t convince his people with his lies. According to
one
opinion poll, 51% of the American people reject a military strike
against
Syria. The British Parliament was against the strike too; and there was a
tough
debate in the French parliament. The
whole “atmosphere” in Europe was against the strike,including the
Vatican. Why?
Because most people didn’t believe Obama’s
story. |
| SPIEGEL:
Are any of the European contacts that you continue to maintain from
Germany? |
SPIEGEL: Is Germany part of the contacts you are
making?
|
| Assad: We have some relations with some
institutions, and have recently been using channels that didn't exist
before. We exchange some information, but we cannot say that we have
political relations. |
President Assad: We have contacts with
some institutions and recently
there have been channels that didn’t exist before. We exchange
information, but
we cannot talk about political
communications. |
| SPIEGEL: Does Germany play a
special role for you? |
SPIEGEL: Does Germany play a special role for
you? |
| Assad: When I think of Europe, I
ask myself who is closer to the reality in my region? Every European
position is still far from our reality. Germany and Austria have the
most objective and closest position to reality. The German position is
the closest. |
President Assad: When I look at Europe, the
question for me is: who is
closer to the reality of what is happening in our region? For us now,
Germany
and Austria have the most objective vision and are the closest to
reality. This
helps achieve Europe’s interests. |
| SPIEGEL: Could Germany take on
the role of intermediary? |
SPIEGEL: Could Germany
play an intermediary role? |
| Assad: Of course, I would
like to see envoys from Germany come to Syria to see and discuss the
reality. Coming here doesn't mean you support the government. But if you
come here, you can do, you can talk, you can discuss, you can convince.
If you think you have to isolate us, you only end up isolating
yourselves. This is also about your interests: Do you really want a
backyard that is filled with al-Qaida? When you support instability
here? After two and a half years, you should rethink your
policies. |
President Assad: I would be
happy if German envoys visited Damascus to
engage with us directly. If they talk to us, it doesn’t mean they
support our
government. They can ascertain for themselves the situation and base
their work
on the facts. If they think that by not engaging with us, they are
isolating
us, I tell them: you are isolating yourselves from reality; so, it’s
about
their interests. What do they gain when al-Qaeda is in their backyard
wreaking
havoc on the world? After two and half years, they should reconsi
their
policies. They should ask themselves: what are they gaining. What do
their
people gain when there is a state of chaos that they are
supporting? |
| SPIEGEL:
Given the unrest in your country, do you even have your chemical
weapons arsenal under control? |
SPIEGEL: In light of the unrest in your
country, are the chemical
weapons stockpiles un control? |
| Assad: Of course,
under full control. Because let me tell you this: the material that
could be used by any regular army doesn't exist in the stores in
activated form. So no one can use it before it is
activated. |
President Assad:
There is no cause for concern, they are very well
protected. |
SPIEGEL: Is this also true of depots
containing biological weapons, which you also
possess?
|
SPIEGEL: This
applies to biological weapons too? You have biological
weapons? |
| Assad: It is classified information. We
never talk about military classified information, but this should not be
understood as confirmation that we possess
them. |
President Assad: We didn’t give any information
in this regard because
it is consi ed classified information. This should not be understood
as
confirmation that we possess them. |
| SPIEGEL: Do you understand the international
community's fears that these weapons of mass destruction could fall into
the hands of terrorists? |
SPIEGEL: You understand
the international community’s concern about
WMDs falling into the hands of the
terrorists. |
| Assad: The situation is not
as bad as it seems in the media and the West. There is no need for any
undue concern. |
President Assad: It is not as bad as it is
portrayed by the media and
believed in the West. There is no need for any undue
concern. |
| SPIEGEL: According to our information,
the armed opposition controls at least 40 percent of the country, and
some estimates put that figure as high as more than two-thirds of the
country. |
SPIEGEL: As far as we know, you lost about 40% of your
territories
to the armed opposition, and in some areas about two thirds of the
land. |
Assad: These numbers are exaggerated. Sixty
percent of Syria is desert. Who's in the desert? Nobody. In the rest of
the country they don't control a single full
area.
|
President Assad: These are exaggerated
figures. 60% of the country is
desert and there is nobody there. In other parts of the country, the
terrorists
don’t control any connected areas. |
| SPIEGEL: That's not true for the area
along the Turkish borders. |
SPIEGEL: This doesn’t
apply to the area adjacent to the Turkish
borders. |
| Assad: They are on the
borders in the north of Aleppo with Turkey, but only on that part, not
fully. They have some areas, but they are just focal points. We're not
talking about a front. Sometimes they are isolated in areas where
there's no army to fight them. But this isn't about percentages. The
solidarity of the population is much more important to us. And this is
growing because many don't want terrorists destroying the country any
more. |
President Assad: They exist only in the area
north of Aleppo, otherwise,
there are only pockets. You cannot talk about a real frontline against
us.
Sometimes, these fighters are completely isolated and exist in areas
where we
don’t want to deploy the army. The percentage of land is not important
to us.
People’s solidarity is much more important and this is growing all the
time,
because they see what the terrorists are doing and what it leads
to. |
| SPIEGEL: The brutality of the conflict has
turned a quarter of the population -- some 6 million people -- into
refugees. |
SPIEGEL: As a result of the violence of the conflict, a
quarter of
the Syrian population, i.e. five million people have become
refugees. |
| Assad: We don't have a precise number. Even
4 million could be exaggerated because many Syrians moved within Syria
to another house or with relatives and didn't register
themselves. |
President Assad: We don’t have accurate figures;
but even four million
is an exaggerated figure. Many of those who are displaced within Syria
go to
live with relatives and don’t appear in any
statistics.
|
| SPIEGEL: You sound as if you are talking
about a tax increase and not a humanitarian
catastrophe. |
SPIEGEL: You talk about this issue as if it
were an issue of paying
taxes and not a humanitarian disaster. |
| Assad: Actually, no. In the West, when
you ask about the number, you talk about it like spreadsheets. If you
have 1 million or 5 million, you're going to do the same. Whether it's
70,000 victims, 80,000, then 90,000, or 100,000, it's like an auction.
It's not an auction -- it's a tragedy. Whether it's 1,000 or 10,000,
it's the same. |
President Assad:The exact
opposite is true. You in the West use these
figures as if you were reading a spreadsheet: four, five, six, seven
million. These
figures are of your making: seventy thousand victims, eighty thousand,
ninety
thousand, one hundred thousand, as if it were an
auction. |
| SPIEGEL: The flood of refugees is
happening for one reason -- you and your
regime. |
SPIEGEL: The reason for this exodus is that people are
fleeing you
and your regime. |
| Assad: Sorry, is this a question or a
statement of fact? If it's a statement, it's not correct. If it's a
question, the first thing we have to ask is why people leave? You don't
have one reason; you have multiple reasons. One of the reasons is that
many people left their homes and houses because of the threat of the
terrorists. |
President Assad: Is this a question or a
statement? If it’s a statement,
then it’s completely wrong. If people flee, they do so for a number of
reasons,
first of which is fear of the terrorists. |
| SPIEGEL: No one is fleeing your soldiers
and security forces? |
SPIEGEL: Nobody flees from your soldiers and security
forces? |
Assad: The army represents
Syria, otherwise you wouldn't have the army, because it would have been
divided a long time ago. It is a threat to no one. When it comes to
refugees, you have to ask yourself a question about the other
governments, especially the Turkish government. What is their interest
in having these high numbers? You know what it is? Their interest is to
use them as a humanitarian card with the UN. Some other countries used
them to get money for themselves, not the refugees. So you have
corruption, interests and some people that could have fled because they
are scared of the government, but we don't have anything against them.
And in the last two weeks, more than 100,000 or 150,000, depending on
the estimate, came back to Syria. So the tide has recently been
reversed.
|
President Assad: The army represents Syria;
otherwise it would have
disintegrated long ago. It doesn’t pose a threat to anyone. When we talk
about
refugees, let’s talk about another government – the Turkish government –
which
uses these figures for its own interests. It manipulates these figures
and
plays this humanitarian card at the United Nations in or to put
pressure on
us. Another reason for their interests is the money they receive to help
the
refugees, the money that moves only in the wrong direction, to their
pockets;
there are so many reasons. Of course within these large numbers of
refugees,
yes, some did flee in fear of the government but the situation is now
changing
with about a hundred or a hundred and fifty thousand refugees returning
home.
|
| SPIEGEL:How did you convince people to
return? |
SPIEGEL:How could you push those to take that
step? |
| Assad: We worked hard to bring them back. We
engaged with everybody to alleviate their fears. If you didn't violate
the law, then we have no problem with you. If you are against the
government, come be against the government in Syria. We don't have a
problem. That was very successful. |
President Assad: We engaged with them
in or to dispel their fears. Those
who committed no crime have nothing to fear. Our message was: if you
want to be
against the government: come back and speak against us; and it
worked. |
| SPIEGEL: From a
military perspective, however, you haven't had any success. The capture
of Aleppo that was promised has not come to pass. Maalula remains a
major problem, and there's even fighting in the suburbs of Damascus. We
heard the thunder of grenades on our way to your
palace. |
SPIEGEL: You cannot show any
military victory on any military front:
you regaining control over Aleppo, which you announced, hasn’t happened.
Ma’aloula
is still a big problem. Even parts of Damascus are being shelled. We
heard the
sound of shelling on our way to your palace. |
Assad: When you have this kind of crisis, you
cannot say you are as strong as before. The damage is much too massive.
To be realistic, it will take time before we get over this problem. We
don't have any other option than to believe in our
victory.
(missing text here)
|
President Assad: When you
are dealing with this kind of crisis, it is
impossible for you to be as strong as in the past. The damage is huge
and we’ll
need a lot of time to overcome this. But the army and the people are
united;
and we have no choice but to trust and believe in our victory and in
saving our
country. |
| SPIEGEL: How can you be
so confident of victory when you need help from Lebanon's militant group
Hezbollah? |
SPIEGEL: How can you believe in your victory if you brought
Hezbollah in to help you? |
| Assad: Lebanon is a small country with a
population of 4 million. In Damascus alone we have 5 million. Syria is
too big for Hezbollah even if they want to send all their troops. We
fought with them on the border with Lebanon against terrorists who
attacked their loyalists, and we cooperated, and that was
good. |
President Assad: Lebanon is a
very small country, about four million
people. Damascus alone has five million, and Syria is too large and wide
a
country to be covered by Hezbollah. We cooperated on the borders with
Lebanon
in the fight against those terrorists who were also attacking Hezbollah
members. That cooperation was fruitful and
successful. |
| SPIEGEL: So you could actually do
without Hezbollah's help? |
SPIEGEL: So, you can at last do without
Hezbollah’s help? |
| Assad: That's not what I
said. I'm talking about the perception in the West and in the media that
Hezbollah is fighting because the Syrian army cannot fight. Even if you
want to make it a reality, you can't, because the proportion doesn't
work. |
President Assad: I didn’t say that, I only wanted
to clarify and correct
the western perception that the Syrian army couldn’t fight any more and
that’s
why Hezbollah intervened. |
| SPIEGEL: Hezbollah are among the few who still
support you. Russian President Putin appears to be slowly losing his
patience with you. And the new Iranian president, Hassan Rohani, could
find rapprochement with the US to be more important than your
survival. |
SPIEGEL: Hezbollah is one of the few entities that continue
to
support you. It seems that President Putin is gradually losing his
patience
with you. |
| Assad: Putin is more supportive than ever.
This has been proven by Russia's three vetoes against sanctions in the
UN Security Council. |
President Assad: President Putin is more supportive of us now than
any
other time. He showed this by using three vetoes at the Security Council
to
prevent sanctions against us.
|
| SPIEGEL: But he voted
in favor of a resolution to destroy your chemical
weapons. |
SPIEGEL: But he endorsed
the most recent resolution, which calls for
the destruction of the chemical weapons |
| Assad: It's a good
resolution. |
President Assad: That was a
good resolution |
| SPIEGEL: Because it prevented a US air
strike? |
SPIEGEL: Because it averted the military
strike? |
| Assad: There's not a single point
in that resolution that's against our interests. The Russians see very
clearly what we are doing here because they suffered from terrorists in
Chechnya, and they know the meaning of
terrorism. |
President Assad: There was no item in that
resolution that undermined
our interests. President Putin knows from his experience in fighting
terrorism
in Chechnya what we are going through here. |
SPIEGEL: Does that mean you are confident
Moscow will deliver the S-300 air defense system you've been waiting on
for months?
|
SPIEGEL: That’s
why you are confident Moscow will provide you with
the S300 air defense system, which you have been waiting months
for? |
| Assad: He said very clearly on many
different occasions that he would continue supporting Syria, and that
he's committed to the contract -- not only on air defense, but all kinds
of armaments. |
President Assad: He has said more than once that he will support
Syria
in different fields and that he is committed to the contracts signed
between
us. This doesn’t only apply to air defense systems but to other weapons
as well
which enable us to defend ourselves. |
| SPIEGEL: The
international community will do everything possible to prevent you from
acquiring more arms. |
SPIEGEL: The
international community will do everything to prevent
arming you. |
| Assad: On what grounds? They
don't have any right. We are a state, and we have the right to defend
ourselves. We don't occupy others' lands. Why doesn't the international
community oppose Israel when they get all these armaments? Germany sent
Israel three submarines, and they occupy our land. We don't trust the
West because of its double
standards. |
President Assad: What right do they have? We are a
sovereign state, and
we have the right to defend ourselves. We don’t occupy anybody’s land.
Why
isn’t the international community bothered when Israel gets all kinds of
weapons? Why should Israel receive three submarines from Germany,
despite the
fact that it is an occupying power and still occupies our land? We have
the
right to arm ourselves in accordance with the U.N. charter. This is why
the
West isn’t objective in this position; it’s because of these double
standards
that we don’t trust the West. |
| SPIEGEL:
Even if Putin delivers the new air defense system, aren't you afraid
that Israel will bomb it to pieces? |
SPIEGEL: Aren’t you
concerned that Israel will shell the new defense
system as soon as it arrives from Moscow? |
| Assad: You cannot
be afraid. When you are in a war situation, you don't do something
because you're afraid of doing it. You have to strengthen yourself and
not to allow your enemy to destroy your armaments or to
win. |
President Assad: In our case,
and in this state of war, we don’t allow
ourselves to feel fear. We have to do everything to be strong; and we
shall not
allow anyone to destroy our armaments and military
equipment. |
| SPIEGEL: And if they
try? |
SPIEGEL: And if it happened? |
| Assad: When that happens we can talk about
it. |
President Assad: Then, if
things come to that, we shall talk about it
then. |
SPIEGEL: In the past you sounded more
self-confident when it came to Israel.
|
SPIEGEL: In the past your rhetoric about Israel was more
self-confident. |
| Assad: No, we
have always said we need peace and stability in this region. Even if you
want to retaliate, you have to ask yourself the question: What would
the result be? Now that we're fighting al-Qaida, in particular, we have
to be cautious that we don't start a new
war. |
President Assad: No, we need peace and
stability in this region. We have
always been aware of this. When it comes to revenge and reacting to a
strike,
we need to ask ourselves: where would that lead, particularly now that
we are
fighting al-Qaeda. We need to be careful not to ignite a new
war. |
| SPIEGEL: At what point will you be
able to claim victory over al-Qaida? |
SPIEGEL: When will you win against
al-Qaeda? |
| Assad: The
victory is stability. The first phase is to get rid of the terrorists.
The second one, which is more difficult and dangerous, is to get rid of
their ideology, which has infiltrated some parts in Syria. It cannot be
that an eight-year-old boy tries to behead someone, which happened in
the north. Or that children watch the beheading with jubilation, happy
like they're watching a soccer match, for example. If we don't deal with
this problem, which is more dangerous than the terrorists themselves,
we're going to face a bleak future. |
President Assad: When we restore stability;
that’s why we must get rid
of the terrorists. Then, we need to get rid of their ideology that has
infiltrated certain areas of Syria, because it is more dangerous than
terrorism
itself. This ideology, which encourages an eight-year old boy to
slaughter a
man while adults and children watch and cheer as if they were watching a
football match. This actually happened in northern Syria. Getting rid of
this
mentality and liberating ourselves from it is going to be more difficult
than
getting rid of the chemical weapons. |
| SPIEGEL: This
scene wouldn't sound all that surprising if it had taken place in
Somalia. But in Syria? |
SPIEGEL: Such scenes
might not be strange in states like Somalia,
Liberia and Sierra Leone, but in Syria? |
| Assad: The brutality we are
experiencing in Syria is incredible. People slaughtered a Christian
bishop by slitting his throat with a small
knife. |
President Assad: The brutality
we are witnessing in Syria is incredible. Think
of the Bishop whose head the terrorists severed with a small
knife. |
| SPIEGEL: Do you still believe you can return
Syria to its pre-war
state? |
SPIEGEL: Somalia, Liberia and Sierra Leone have been
“failed” states
for decades. Yet, you believe you can restore Syria back to
pre-rebellion
times? |
| Assad: In terms
of stability, of course we can. If we stop billions in support for the
terrorists from Saudi Arabia and Qatar, and the logistic support of
Turkey, we could solve this problem in a few
months. |
President Assad: Concerning stability, yes, when an end is put to billions of dollars flowing from Saudi Arabia and Qatar, when Turkey stops its logistical assistance to the terrorists. Then we can solve the problem in a few months.
|
| SPIEGEL: Is it still possible to
find a solution through negotiations? |
SPIEGEL: Is a negotiated solution still
possible? |
Assad: With the
militants? No. The definition of political opposition doesn't include
an army. We will negotiate with whoever wants to lay down his arms and
go back to normality. Since we discussed deserters before, I'd like to
point out that it's going the other way too. People who used to be
militants are fighting with the army
now.
|
President Assad: With the armed groups - no. My
definition of the
opposition is a political program or entity that doesn’t carry weapons.
If they
were to lay down their weapons and return to normal life, it would be
possible
to talk to such people. When we spoke earlier about defectors, it is
also
important to point out that now many of them are withdrawing from rebel
camps
and joining the fight on our side.
|
| SPIEGEL: The
international community blames you for the escalation of this conflict,
whose end is not yet in sight. How do you live with this
guilt? |
SPIEGEL: For the
international community, you are responsible for
escalating this conflict, which has no end in sight. How can you cope
with such
guilt? |
| Assad: It's not about me, but about
Syria. The situation in Syria worries and saddens me; that's where my
concern is. I am not concerned for myself. |
President Assad: It’s not about me, but about
Syria. The situation in
Syria worries and saddens me; that’s where my concern is, I am not
concerned
for myself. |
SPIEGEL:
Are your wife and three children still standing by
you?
|
SPIEGEL: Do your wife and three children
stand at your side? |
| Assad: Of course, they never left Damascus for
one moment. |
President Assad: Certainly, they have never left
Damascus for one
moment.
|
| SPIEGEL: Do you sometimes fear that
something like what happened to Romanian President Ceausescu might
happen to you? After a short trial, he was shot by his own
soldiers. |
SPIEGEL: Has it crossed your mind that your end will be
similar to
President Ceausescu of Romania, when he was killed by a group of his
soldiers? |
| Assad: If I were afraid, I would have left
Syria a long time ago. |
President Assad: I am not worried about myself.
Had I been worried and
fearful, I would have left Syria a long time
ago. |
| SPIEGEL:
Mr. President, we thank you for this
interview. |
SPIEGEL: Mr. President, thank you very much for this
interview. |
