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WikiLeaks Founder Julian Assange on the 'War Logs'. "I Enjoy Crushing Bastards" Printer friendly page Print This
By John Goetz and Marcel Rosenbach interview Julian Assange
Der Spiegel
Wednesday, Jul 28, 2010

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange: "We understand the importance of protecting confidential sources."

In a SPIEGEL interview, WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, 39, discusses his decision to publish the Afghanistan war logs, the difficult balance between the public interest and the need for state secrets and why he believes people who wage war are more dangerous than him.

SPIEGEL: You are about to publish a vast amount of classified data on the war in Afghanistan. What is your motivation?

Assange: These files are the most comprehensive description of a war to be published during the course of a war -- in other words, at a time when they still have a chance of doing some good. They cover more than 90,000 different incidents, together with precise geographical locations. They cover the small and the large. A single body of information, they eclipse all that has been previously said about Afghanistan. They will change our perspective on not only the war in Afghanistan, but on all modern wars.

SPIEGEL: Do you think that the publication of this data will influence political decision-makers?

Assange: Yes. This material shines light on the everyday brutality and squalor of war. The archive will change public opinion and it will change the opinion of people in positions of political and diplomatic influence.

(see photo gallery below)

SPIEGEL: Aren't you expecting a little too much?

Assange: There is a mood to end the war in Afghanistan. This information won't do it alone, but it will shift political will in a significant manner.

SPIEGEL: The material contains military secrets and names of sources. By publishing it, aren't you endangering the lives of international troops and their informants in Afghanistan?

Assange: The Kabul files contain no information related to current troop movements. The source went through their own harm-minimization process and instructed us to conduct our usual review to make sure there was not a significant chance of innocents being negatively affected. We understand the importance of protecting confidential sources, and we understand why it is important to protect certain US and ISAF sources.

SPIEGEL: So what, specifically, did you do to minimize any possible harm?

Assange: We identified cases where there may be a reasonable chance of harm occurring to the innocent. Those records were identified and edited accordingly.

SPIEGEL: Is there anything that you consider to be a legitimate state secret?

Assange: There is a legitimate role for secrecy, and there is a legitimate role for openness. Unfortunately, those who commit abuses against humanity or against the law find abusing legitimate secrecy to conceal their abuse all too easy. People of good conscience have always revealed abuses by ignoring abusive strictures. It is not WikiLeaks that decides to reveal something. It is a whistleblower or a dissident who decides to reveal it. Our job is to make sure that these individuals are protected, the public is informed and the historical record is not denied.

SPIEGEL: But in the end somebody has to decide whether you publish or not. Who determines the criteria? WikiLeaks considers itself to be a trailblazer when it comes to freedom of information, but it lacks transparency in its own publishing decisions.

Assange: This is ridiculous. We are clear about what we will publish and what we will not. We do not have adhoc editorial decisions. We always release the full primary sources to our articles. What other press organization has such exacting standards? Everyone should try to follow our lead.

(see photo gallery below)

SPIEGEL: The problem is that it is difficult to hold WikiLeaks accountable. You operate your servers in countries that offer you broad protection. Does WikiLeaks consider itself to be above the law?

Assange: WikiLeaks does not exist in outer space. We are people who exist on Earth, in particular nations, each of which have a particular set of laws. We have been legally challenged in various countries. We have won every challenge. It is courts that decide the law, not corporations or generals. The law, as expressed by constitutions and courts, has been on our side.

SPIEGEL: You have said that there is a correlation between the transparency for which you are fighting and a just society. What do you mean by that?

Assange: Reform can only come about when injustice is exposed. To oppose an unjust plan before it reaches implementation is to stop injustice.

SPIEGEL: During the Vietnam War, US President Richard Nixon once called Daniel Ellsberg, the leaker of the Pentagon Papers, the most dangerous man in America. Are you today's most dangerous man or the most endangered?

Assange: The most dangerous men are those who are in charge of war. And they need to be stopped. If that makes me dangerous in their eyes, so be it.

SPIEGEL: You could have started a company in Silicon Valley and lived in a home in Palo Alto with a swimming pool. Why did you decide to do the WikiLeaks project instead?

Assange: We all only live once. So we are obligated to make good use of the time that we have and to do something that is meaningful and satisfying. This is something that I find meaningful and satisfying. That is my temperament. I enjoy creating systems on a grand scale, and I enjoy helping people who are vulnerable. And I enjoy crushing bastards. So it is enjoyable work.

Interview conducted by John Goetz and Marcel Rosenbach

Photo Gallery from Der Spiegel

Fighting in Helmand, Afghanistan: The world once only saw the fight against the Taliban from photos like this one. Since a trove of nearly 92,000 classified war logs was uncovered by WikiLeaks, the war has taken on a first-hand and more pessimistic narrative.

 

Report about the plans to kidnap the Taliban leader Mullah Dadullah: The report is written in the bureaucratic jargon typical of the military. "Instum" in the dateline means "Intelligence Summary

 

Police report about an anti-American protest: Many reports are cluttered with military abbreviations. AFF stands for "anti-Afghan forces" and CF is for "coalition forces." Afghans are identified as LNs or "local nationals"; PID is "positive identification" and COP stands for "command outpost."

 

Report on the Taliban alliance to the Haqqani-warlord network: Geographical positions are given parenthetically and AHP means "Afghan Highway Police." Jingle trucks are intricately adorned brightly colored trucks of Afghan civilians; connex is container; and HDS is a computer.

 

Report about a commando of suicide bombers in Kabul: The confidential report is meant for NATO and ISAF (N/I C) and is a warning from the Counterterrorism Center (CTC). A pakul is a traditional woolen cap worn by Afghan men and PD-5 is area where the bombers are located. GoA is "government of Afghanistan."

 

Information about the former Pakistani secret service chief Hamid Gul, whom the US accuses of helping aid the Taliban: This is also meant for only NATO and ISAF troops. TB means Taliban, and IED is an "improvised explosive device," commonly used on roadside bombs planted by insurgents.

 

The whistleblowing organization WikiLeaks, which published the Afghanistan war logs this week, has made it its mission to shed light on dodgy deeds that governments would prefer to keep under wraps.

 

Its uncompromising approach has made its founder Julian Assange a hero for many, but it has also brought him uncomfortable attention from US authorities.

 

WikiLeaks gave Der Spiegel, The Guardian and The New York Times access to the war logs ahead of their release.

 

WikiLeaks has made headlines in the past because of secret documents it has made public. "We structure our system so that we do not know the identity of our sources," Assange says.

 

US Defense Secretary Robert Gates has been a vocal critic of the site. "These people can put out whatever they want and are never held accountable for it," Gates said in response to the publication of a video showing a deadly 2007 attack by an American Apache helicopter on a group of about a dozen civilians in Baghdad, two of them employees of the Reuters news agency.

 

Reuters had tried in vain to obtain a copy of the video. Assange, however, managed to get one.

 

Daniel Schmitt is a German colleague of Assange's. They are the only two people involved in WikiLeaks to have shown their faces in public.

Source: Der Spiegel

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